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Thursday, June 26, 2008

Another Victory for the USA Constitution

I know a lot of people probably aren't happy about this, but this is a victory today, one more of our rights got upheld today by the Supreme Court, and even if it's not a right you think we should have, the very fact that you think we shouldn't have it is why it is so important to protect the rights that we do have, which this is one of them.

High court affirms gun rights in historic decision

By MARK SHERMAN, Associated Press Writer

Silent on central questions of gun control for two centuries, the Supreme Court found its voice Thursday in a decision affirming the right to have guns for self-defense in the home and addressing a constitutional riddle almost as old as the republic over what it means to say the people may keep and bear arms.

The court's 5-4 ruling struck down the District of Columbia's ban on handguns and imperiled similar prohibitions in other cities, Chicago and San Francisco among them. Federal gun restrictions, however, were expected to remain largely intact.

The court's historic awakening on the meaning of the Second Amendment brought a curiously mixed response, muted in some unexpected places.

The reaction broke less along party lines than along the divide between cities wracked with gun violence and rural areas where gun ownership is embedded in daily life. Democrats have all but abandoned their long push for stricter gun laws at the national level after deciding it's a losing issue for them. Republicans welcomed what they called a powerful precedent.

Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama said merely that the court did not find an unfettered right to bear arms and that the ruling "will provide much-needed guidance to local jurisdictions across the country." But another Chicagoan, Democratic Mayor Richard Daley, called the ruling "very frightening" and predicted more violence and higher taxes to pay for extra police if his city's gun restrictions are lost.

The court had not conclusively interpreted the Second Amendment since its ratification in 1791. The amendment reads: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

The basic issue for the justices was whether the amendment protects an individual's right to own guns no matter what, or whether that right is somehow tied to service in a state militia, a once-vital, now-archaic grouping of citizens. That's been the heart of the gun control debate for decades.

The answer: Writing for the majority, Justice Antonin Scalia said that an individual right to bear arms exists and is supported by "the historical narrative" both before and after the Second Amendment was adopted.

President Bush said: "I applaud the Supreme Court's historic decision today confirming what has always been clear in the Constitution: the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear firearms."

The full implications of the decision, however, are not sorted out. Still to be seen, for example, is the extent to which the right to have a gun for protection in the home may extend outside the home.

Scalia said the Constitution does not permit "the absolute prohibition of handguns held and used for self-defense in the home." The court also struck down D.C. requirements that firearms be equipped with trigger locks or kept disassembled, but left intact the licensing of guns. The district allows shotguns and rifles to be kept in homes if they are registered, kept unloaded and taken apart or equipped with trigger locks.

Scalia noted that the handgun is Americans' preferred weapon of self-defense in part because "it can be pointed at a burglar with one hand while the other hand dials the police."

But he said nothing in the ruling should "cast doubt on long-standing prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons or the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings."

And in a concluding paragraph to the 64-page opinion, Scalia said the justices in the majority "are aware of the problem of handgun violence in this country" and believe the Constitution "leaves the District of Columbia a variety of tools for combating that problem, including some measures regulating handguns."

D.C. Mayor Adrian Fenty responded with a plan to require residents to register their handguns. "More handguns in the District of Columbia will only lead to more handgun violence," Fenty said.

In a dissent he summarized from the bench, Justice John Paul Stevens wrote that the majority "would have us believe that over 200 years ago, the Framers made a choice to limit the tools available to elected officials wishing to regulate civilian uses of weapons."

He said such evidence "is nowhere to be found."

Justice Stephen Breyer wrote a separate dissent in which he said, "In my view, there simply is no untouchable constitutional right guaranteed by the Second Amendment to keep loaded handguns in the house in crime-ridden urban areas."

Joining Scalia were Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Samuel Alito, Anthony Kennedy and Clarence Thomas. The other dissenters were Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg and David Souter.

Gun rights advocates praised the decision. "I consider this the opening salvo in a step-by-step process of providing relief for law-abiding Americans everywhere that have been deprived of this freedom," said Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the National Rifle Association.

The NRA will file lawsuits in San Francisco, Chicago and several Chicago suburbs challenging handgun restrictions there based on Thursday's outcome.

Some Democrats also welcomed the ruling.

"This opinion should usher in a new era in which the constitutionality of government regulations of firearms are reviewed against the backdrop of this important right," said Sen. Patrick Leahy of Vermont.

The capital's gun law was among the nation's strictest.

Dick Anthony Heller, 66, an armed security guard, sued the district after it rejected his application to keep a handgun at his Capitol Hill home a short distance from the Supreme Court.

"I'm thrilled I am now able to defend myself and my household in my home," Heller said shortly after the opinion was announced.

The U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia ruled in Heller's favor and struck down the district's handgun ban, saying the Constitution guarantees Americans the right to own guns and a total prohibition on handguns is not compatible with that right.

The issue caused a split within the Bush administration. Vice President Dick Cheney supported the appeals court ruling, but others in the administration feared it could lead to the undoing of other gun regulations, including a federal law restricting sales of machine guns. Other laws keep felons from buying guns and provide for an instant background check.

The last Supreme Court ruling on the matter came in 1939 in U.S. v. Miller, which involved a sawed-off shotgun. Constitutional scholars agree it did not squarely answer the question of individual versus collective rights.

The case is District of Columbia v. Heller, 07-290.

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Monday, June 23, 2008

Ontological Confusion: Infinitum non capax finiti

I've decided to write a paper on divine transcendence for my independent study class with Quentin, and while researching exactly what the phrase 'Infinitum non capax finiti' means, I ran across this gentleman's blog and I'm going to use two things that he says in my paper! Hurray for the Internet! I've quoted the passages below, they are arguing against this concept.

‘Surely it is one thing to say that the finite creation is incapable of capturing and containing the infinite God and another thing entirely to affirm the ability of the infinite God to communicate himself without resistance by means of created being. I think that distinction is key.'

'Because God created the entire world, including both immaterial and material dimensions, he is free to unite himself with and use any portion of it that he desires. God finds no ontological “resistance” to his presence and action in his own creation.’

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Friday, June 20, 2008

Platonic Mysticism!!!

i learned a new word tonight, it's called henosis, where have you been all my life, thank you pseudo, what could I do without you!!!
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Wednesday, June 18, 2008

Totally Awesome Christian Mysticism Site!

here, here, and here are some links to the articles i actually read from this site, and here is a link to the guys blog page. i'll just copy what i said in my email that i sent out to my friends informing them about these sites below:

i'm sure some of you will disagree with a lot of what's said here, especially the 'god is love' section, but it presented some new arguments i haven't heard before for universal salvation and against eternal damnation (infinite punishment for a finite offense?), and the guy seems to know his scripture pretty well too.

also, i thought that the biblical panentheism section was just awesome, but i'm a panentheist, so of course i would think its awesome. begging my own question here i guess (does that even make sense?) oh yeah, it's about christian mysticism, and not about islam or sufism, for those of you who think i'm predictable. Enjoy!
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Tuesday, June 17, 2008

Universal Sufism

I'm trying to do some research on divine transcendence and i ran across this wikipedia page, i thought it was pretty cool, so i've passed it on to ya'all. hope you enjoy it as much as i did!
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Monday, June 16, 2008

Behind TV Analysts, Pentagon's Hidden Hand

This was another great article my buddy sent to me. thought i'd share it with all of you. please ignore the underlined sections, those are for me. enjoy!!!

By DAVID BARSTOW

April 20, 2008

In the summer of 2005, the Bush administration confronted a fresh wave of criticism over Guantánamo Bay. The detention center had just been branded "the gulag of our times" by Amnesty International, there were new allegations of abuse from United Nations human rights experts and calls were mounting for its closure.

The administration's communications experts responded swiftly. Early one Friday morning, they put a group of retired military officers on one of the jets normally used by Vice President Dick Cheney and flew them to Cuba for a carefully orchestrated tour of Guantánamo.

To the public, these men are members of a familiar fraternity, presented tens of thousands of times on television and radio as "military analysts" whose long service has equipped them to give authoritative and unfettered judgments about the most pressing issues of the post-Sept. 11 world.

Hidden behind that appearance of objectivity, though, is a Pentagon information apparatus that has used those analysts in a campaign to generate favorable news coverage of the administration's wartime performance, an examination by The New York Times has found.

The effort, which began with the buildup to the Iraq war and continues to this day, has sought to exploit ideological and military allegiances, and also a powerful financial dynamic: Most of the analysts have ties to military contractors vested in the very war policies they are asked to assess on air.

Those business relationships are hardly ever disclosed to the viewers, and sometimes not even to the networks themselves. But collectively, the men on the plane and several dozen other military analysts represent more than 150 military contractors either as lobbyists, senior executives, board members or consultants. The companies include defense heavyweights, but also scores of smaller companies, all part of a vast assemblage of contractors scrambling for hundreds of billions in military business generated by the administration's war on terror. It is a furious competition, one in which inside information and easy access to senior officials are highly prized.

Records and interviews show how the Bush administration has used its control over access and information in an effort to transform the analysts into a kind of media Trojan horse — an instrument intended to shape terrorism coverage from inside the major TV and radio networks.

Analysts have been wooed in hundreds of private briefings with senior military leaders, including officials with significant influence over contracting and budget matters, records show. They have been taken on tours of Iraq and given access to classified intelligence. They have been briefed by officials from the White House, State Department and Justice Department, including Mr. Cheney, Alberto R. Gonzales and Stephen J. Hadley.

In turn, members of this group have echoed administration talking points, sometimes even when they suspected the information was false or inflated. Some analysts acknowledge they suppressed doubts because they feared jeopardizing their access.

A few expressed regret for participating in what they regarded as an effort to dupe the American public with propaganda dressed as independent military analysis.

"It was them saying, 'We need to stick our hands up your back and move your mouth for you,' " Robert S. Bevelacqua, a retired Green Beret and former Fox News analyst, said.

Kenneth Allard, a former NBC military analyst who has taught information warfare at the National Defense University, said the campaign amounted to a sophisticated information operation. "This was a coherent, active policy," he said.

As conditions in Iraq deteriorated, Mr. Allard recalled, he saw a yawning gap between what analysts were told in private briefings and what subsequent inquiries and books later revealed.

"Night and day," Mr. Allard said, "I felt we'd been hosed."

The Pentagon defended its relationship with military analysts, saying they had been given only factual information about the war. "The intent and purpose of this is nothing other than an earnest attempt to inform the American people," Bryan Whitman, a Pentagon spokesman, said.

It was, Mr. Whitman added, "a bit incredible" to think retired military officers could be "wound up" and turned into "puppets of the Defense Department."

Many analysts strongly denied that they had either been co-opted or had allowed outside business interests to affect their on-air comments, and some have used their platforms to criticize the conduct of the war. Several, like Jeffrey D. McCausland, a CBS military analyst and defense industry lobbyist, said they kept their networks informed of their outside work and recused themselves from coverage that touched on business interests.

"I'm not here representing the administration," Dr. McCausland said.

Some network officials, meanwhile, acknowledged only a limited understanding of their analysts' interactions with the administration. They said that while they were sensitive to potential conflicts of interest, they did not hold their analysts to the same ethical standards as their news employees regarding outside financial interests. The onus is on their analysts to disclose conflicts, they said. And whatever the contributions of military analysts, they also noted the many network journalists who have covered the war for years in all its complexity.

Five years into the Iraq war, most details of the architecture and execution of the Pentagon's campaign have never been disclosed. But The Times successfully sued the Defense Department to gain access to 8,000 pages of e-mail messages, transcripts and records describing years of private briefings, trips to Iraq and Guantánamo and an extensive Pentagon talking points operation.

These records reveal a symbiotic relationship where the usual dividing lines between government and journalism have been obliterated.

Internal Pentagon documents repeatedly refer to the military analysts as "message force multipliers" or "surrogates" who could be counted on to deliver administration "themes and messages" to millions of Americans "in the form of their own opinions."

Though many analysts are paid network consultants, making $500 to $1,000 per appearance, in Pentagon meetings they sometimes spoke as if they were operating behind enemy lines, interviews and transcripts show. Some offered the Pentagon tips on how to outmaneuver the networks, or as one analyst put it to Donald H. Rumsfeld, then the defense secretary, "the Chris Matthews and the Wolf Blitzers of the world." Some warned of planned stories or sent the Pentagon copies of their correspondence with network news executives. Many — although certainly not all — faithfully echoed talking points intended to counter critics.

"Good work," Thomas G. McInerney, a retired Air Force general, consultant and Fox News analyst, wrote to the Pentagon after receiving fresh talking points in late 2006. "We will use it."

Again and again, records show, the administration has enlisted analysts as a rapid reaction force to rebut what it viewed as critical news coverage, some of it by the networks' own Pentagon correspondents. For example, when news articles revealed that troops in Iraq were dying because of inadequate body armor, a senior Pentagon official wrote to his colleagues: "I think our analysts — properly armed — can push back in that arena."

The documents released by the Pentagon do not show any quid pro quo between commentary and contracts. But some analysts said they had used the special access as a marketing and networking opportunity or as a window into future business possibilities.

John C. Garrett is a retired Marine colonel and unpaid analyst for Fox News TV and radio. He is also a lobbyist at Patton Boggs who helps firms win Pentagon contracts, including in Iraq. In promotional materials, he states that as a military analyst he "is privy to weekly access and briefings with the secretary of defense, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and other high level policy makers in the administration." One client told investors that Mr. Garrett's special access and decades of experience helped him "to know in advance — and in detail — how best to meet the needs" of the Defense Department and other agencies.

In interviews Mr. Garrett said there was an inevitable overlap between his dual roles. He said he had gotten "information you just otherwise would not get," from the briefings and three Pentagon-sponsored trips to Iraq. He also acknowledged using this access and information to identify opportunities for clients. "You can't help but look for that," he said, adding, "If you know a capability that would fill a niche or need, you try to fill it. "That's good for everybody."

At the same time, in e-mail messages to the Pentagon, Mr. Garrett displayed an eagerness to be supportive with his television and radio commentary. "Please let me know if you have any specific points you want covered or that you would prefer to downplay," he wrote in January 2007, before President Bush went on TV to describe the surge strategy in Iraq.

Conversely, the administration has demonstrated that there is a price for sustained criticism, many analysts said. "You'll lose all access," Dr. McCausland said.

With a majority of Americans calling the war a mistake despite all administration attempts to sway public opinion, the Pentagon has focused in the last couple of years on cultivating in particular military analysts frequently seen and heard in conservative news outlets, records and interviews show.

Some of these analysts were on the mission to Cuba on June 24, 2005 — the first of six such Guantánamo trips — which was designed to mobilize analysts against the growing perception of Guantánamo as an international symbol of inhumane treatment. On the flight to Cuba, for much of the day at Guantánamo and on the flight home that night, Pentagon officials briefed the 10 or so analysts on their key messages — how much had been spent improving the facility, the abuse endured by guards, the extensive rights afforded detainees.

The results came quickly. The analysts went on TV and radio, decrying Amnesty International, criticizing calls to close the facility and asserting that all detainees were treated humanely.

"The impressions that you're getting from the media and from the various pronouncements being made by people who have not been here in my opinion are totally false," Donald W. Shepperd, a retired Air Force general, reported live on CNN by phone from Guantánamo that same afternoon.

The next morning, Montgomery Meigs, a retired Army general and NBC analyst, appeared on "Today." "There's been over $100 million of new construction," he reported. "The place is very professionally run."

Within days, transcripts of the analysts' appearances were circulated to senior White House and Pentagon officials, cited as evidence of progress in the battle for hearts and minds at home.

Charting the Campaign

By early 2002, detailed planning for a possible Iraq invasion was under way, yet an obstacle loomed. Many Americans, polls showed, were uneasy about invading a country with no clear connection to the Sept. 11 attacks. Pentagon and White House officials believed the military analysts could play a crucial role in helping overcome this resistance.

Torie Clarke, the former public relations executive who oversaw the Pentagon's dealings with the analysts as assistant secretary of defense for public affairs, had come to her job with distinct ideas about achieving what she called "information dominance." In a spin-saturated news culture, she argued, opinion is swayed most by voices perceived as authoritative and utterly independent.

And so even before Sept. 11, she built a system within the Pentagon to recruit "key influentials" — movers and shakers from all walks who with the proper ministrations might be counted on to generate support for Mr. Rumsfeld's priorities.

In the months after Sept. 11, as every network rushed to retain its own all-star squad of retired military officers, Ms. Clarke and her staff sensed a new opportunity. To Ms. Clarke's team, the military analysts were the ultimate "key influential" — authoritative, most of them decorated war heroes, all reaching mass audiences.

The analysts, they noticed, often got more airtime than network reporters, and they were not merely explaining the capabilities of Apache helicopters. They were framing how viewers ought to interpret events. What is more, while the analysts were in the news media, they were not of the news media. They were military men, many of them ideologically in sync with the administration's neoconservative brain trust, many of them important players in a military industry anticipating large budget increases to pay for an Iraq war.

Even analysts with no defense industry ties, and no fondness for the administration, were reluctant to be critical of military leaders, many of whom were friends. "It is very hard for me to criticize the United States Army," said William L. Nash, a retired Army general and ABC analyst. "It is my life."

Other administrations had made sporadic, small-scale attempts to build relationships with the occasional military analyst. But these were trifling compared with what Ms. Clarke's team had in mind. Don Meyer, an aide to Ms. Clarke, said a strategic decision was made in 2002 to make the analysts the main focus of the public relations push to construct a case for war. Journalists were secondary. "We didn't want to rely on them to be our primary vehicle to get information out," Mr. Meyer said.

The Pentagon's regular press office would be kept separate from the military analysts. The analysts would instead be catered to by a small group of political appointees, with the point person being Brent T. Krueger, another senior aide to Ms. Clarke. The decision recalled other administration tactics that subverted traditional journalism. Federal agencies, for example, have paid columnists to write favorably about the administration. They have distributed to local TV stations hundreds of fake news segments with fawning accounts of administration accomplishments. The Pentagon itself has made covert payments to Iraqi newspapers to publish coalition propaganda.

Rather than complain about the "media filter," each of these techniques simply converted the filter into an amplifier. This time, Mr. Krueger said, the military analysts would in effect be "writing the op-ed" for the war.

Assembling the Team

From the start, interviews show, the White House took a keen interest in which analysts had been identified by the Pentagon, requesting lists of potential recruits, and suggesting names. Ms. Clarke's team wrote summaries describing their backgrounds, business affiliations and where they stood on the war.

"Rumsfeld ultimately cleared off on all invitees," said Mr. Krueger, who left the Pentagon in 2004. (Through a spokesman, Mr. Rumsfeld declined to comment for this article.)

Over time, the Pentagon recruited more than 75 retired officers, although some participated only briefly or sporadically. The largest contingent was affiliated with Fox News, followed by NBC and CNN, the other networks with 24-hour cable outlets. But analysts from CBS and ABC were included, too. Some recruits, though not on any network payroll, were influential in other ways — either because they were sought out by radio hosts, or because they often published op-ed articles or were quoted in magazines, Web sites and newspapers. At least nine of them have written op-ed articles for The Times.

The group was heavily represented by men involved in the business of helping companies win military contracts. Several held senior positions with contractors that gave them direct responsibility for winning new Pentagon business. James Marks, a retired Army general and analyst for CNN from 2004 to 2007, pursued military and intelligence contracts as a senior executive with McNeil Technologies. Still others held board positions with military firms that gave them responsibility for government business. General McInerney, the Fox analyst, for example, sits on the boards of several military contractors, including Nortel Government Solutions, a supplier of communication networks.

Several were defense industry lobbyists, such as Dr. McCausland, who works at Buchanan Ingersoll & Rooney, a major lobbying firm where he is director of a national security team that represents several military contractors. "We offer clients access to key decision makers," Dr. McCausland's team promised on the firm's Web site.

Dr. McCausland was not the only analyst making this pledge. Another was Joseph W. Ralston, a retired Air Force general. Soon after signing on with CBS, General Ralston was named vice chairman of the Cohen Group, a consulting firm headed by a former defense secretary, William Cohen, himself now a "world affairs" analyst for CNN. "The Cohen Group knows that getting to 'yes' in the aerospace and defense market — whether in the United States or abroad — requires that companies have a thorough, up-to-date understanding of the thinking of government decision makers," the company tells prospective clients on its Web site.

There were also ideological ties.

Two of NBC's most prominent analysts, Barry R. McCaffrey and the late Wayne A. Downing, were on the advisory board of the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, an advocacy group created with White House encouragement in 2002 to help make the case for ousting Saddam Hussein. Both men also had their own consulting firms and sat on the boards of major military contractors.

Many also shared with Mr. Bush's national security team a belief that pessimistic war coverage broke the nation's will to win in Vietnam, and there was a mutual resolve not to let that happen with this war.

This was a major theme, for example, with Paul E. Vallely, a Fox News analyst from 2001 to 2007. A retired Army general who had specialized in psychological warfare, Mr. Vallely co-authored a paper in 1980 that accused American news organizations of failing to defend the nation from "enemy" propaganda during Vietnam.

"We lost the war — not because we were outfought, but because we were out Psyoped," he wrote. He urged a radically new approach to psychological operations in future wars — taking aim at not just foreign adversaries but domestic audiences, too. He called his approach "MindWar" — using network TV and radio to "strengthen our national will to victory."

The Selling of the War

From their earliest sessions with the military analysts, Mr. Rumsfeld and his aides spoke as if they were all part of the same team.

In interviews, participants described a powerfully seductive environment — the uniformed escorts to Mr. Rumsfeld's private conference room, the best government china laid out, the embossed name cards, the blizzard of PowerPoints, the solicitations of advice and counsel, the appeals to duty and country, the warm thank you notes from the secretary himself.

"Oh, you have no idea," Mr. Allard said, describing the effect. "You're back. They listen to you. They listen to what you say on TV." It was, he said, "psyops on steroids" — a nuanced exercise in influence through flattery and proximity. "It's not like it's, 'We'll pay you $500 to get our story out,' " he said. "It's more subtle."

The access came with a condition. Participants were instructed not to quote their briefers directly or otherwise describe their contacts with the Pentagon.

In the fall and winter leading up to the invasion, the Pentagon armed its analysts with talking points portraying Iraq as an urgent threat. The basic case became a familiar mantra: Iraq possessed chemical and biological weapons, was developing nuclear weapons, and might one day slip some to Al Qaeda; an invasion would be a relatively quick and inexpensive "war of liberation."

At the Pentagon, members of Ms. Clarke's staff marveled at the way the analysts seamlessly incorporated material from talking points and briefings as if it was their own.

"You could see that they were messaging," Mr. Krueger said. "You could see they were taking verbatim what the secretary was saying or what the technical specialists were saying. And they were saying it over and over and over." Some days, he added, "We were able to click on every single station and every one of our folks were up there delivering our message. You'd look at them and say, 'This is working.' "

On April 12, 2003, with major combat almost over, Mr. Rumsfeld drafted a memorandum to Ms. Clarke. "Let's think about having some of the folks who did such a good job as talking heads in after this thing is over," he wrote.

By summer, though, the first signs of the insurgency had emerged. Reports from journalists based in Baghdad were increasingly suffused with the imagery of mayhem.

The Pentagon did not have to search far for a counterweight.

It was time, an internal Pentagon strategy memorandum urged, to "re-energize surrogates and message-force multipliers," starting with the military analysts.

The memorandum led to a proposal to take analysts on a tour of Iraq in September 2003, timed to help overcome the sticker shock from Mr. Bush's request for $87 billion in emergency war financing.

The group included four analysts from Fox News, one each from CNN and ABC, and several research-group luminaries whose opinion articles appear regularly in the nation's op-ed pages.

The trip invitation promised a look at "the real situation on the ground in Iraq."

The situation, as described in scores of books, was deteriorating. L. Paul Bremer III, then the American viceroy in Iraq, wrote in his memoir, "My Year in Iraq," that he had privately warned the White House that the United States had "about half the number of soldiers we needed here."

"We're up against a growing and sophisticated threat," Mr. Bremer recalled telling the president during a private White House dinner.

That dinner took place on Sept. 24, while the analysts were touring Iraq.

Yet these harsh realities were elided, or flatly contradicted, during the official presentations for the analysts, records show. The itinerary, scripted to the minute, featured brief visits to a model school, a few refurbished government buildings, a center for women's rights, a mass grave and even the gardens of Babylon.

Mostly the analysts attended briefings. These sessions, records show, spooled out an alternative narrative, depicting an Iraq bursting with political and economic energy, its security forces blossoming. On the crucial question of troop levels, the briefings echoed the White House line: No reinforcements were needed. The "growing and sophisticated threat" described by Mr. Bremer was instead depicted as degraded, isolated and on the run.

"We're winning," a briefing document proclaimed.

One trip participant, General Nash of ABC, said some briefings were so clearly "artificial" that he joked to another group member that they were on "the George Romney memorial trip to Iraq," a reference to Mr. Romney's infamous claim that American officials had "brainwashed" him into supporting the Vietnam War during a tour there in 1965, while he was governor of Michigan.

But if the trip pounded the message of progress, it also represented a business opportunity: direct access to the most senior civilian and military leaders in Iraq and Kuwait, including many with a say in how the president's $87 billion would be spent. It also was a chance to gather inside information about the most pressing needs confronting the American mission: the acute shortages of "up-armored" Humvees; the billions to be spent building military bases; the urgent need for interpreters; and the ambitious plans to train Iraq's security forces.

Information and access of this nature had undeniable value for trip participants like William V. Cowan and Carlton A. Sherwood.

Mr. Cowan, a Fox analyst and retired Marine colonel, was the chief executive of a new military firm, the wvc3 Group. Mr. Sherwood was its executive vice president. At the time, the company was seeking contracts worth tens of millions to supply body armor and counterintelligence services in Iraq. In addition, wvc3 Group had a written agreement to use its influence and connections to help tribal leaders in Al Anbar Province win reconstruction contracts from the coalition.

"Those sheiks wanted access to the C.P.A.," Mr. Cowan recalled in an interview, referring to the Coalition Provisional Authority.

Mr. Cowan said he pleaded their cause during the trip. "I tried to push hard with some of Bremer's people to engage these people of Al Anbar," he said.

Back in Washington, Pentagon officials kept a nervous eye on how the trip translated on the airwaves. Uncomfortable facts had bubbled up during the trip. One briefer, for example, mentioned that the Army was resorting to packing inadequately armored Humvees with sandbags and Kevlar blankets. Descriptions of the Iraqi security forces were withering. "They can't shoot, but then again, they don't," one officer told them, according to one participant's notes.

"I saw immediately in 2003 that things were going south," General Vallely, one of the Fox analysts on the trip, recalled in an interview with The Times.

The Pentagon, though, need not have worried.

"You can't believe the progress," General Vallely told Alan Colmes of Fox News upon his return. He predicted the insurgency would be "down to a few numbers" within months.

"We could not be more excited, more pleased," Mr. Cowan told Greta Van Susteren of Fox News. There was barely a word about armor shortages or corrupt Iraqi security forces. And on the key strategic question of the moment — whether to send more troops — the analysts were unanimous.

"I am so much against adding more troops," General Shepperd said on CNN.

Access and Influence

Inside the Pentagon and at the White House, the trip was viewed as a masterpiece in the management of perceptions, not least because it gave fuel to complaints that "mainstream" journalists were ignoring the good news in Iraq.

"We're hitting a home run on this trip," a senior Pentagon official wrote in an e-mail message to Richard B. Myers and Peter Pace, then chairman and vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Its success only intensified the Pentagon's campaign. The pace of briefings accelerated. More trips were organized. Eventually the effort involved officials from Washington to Baghdad to Kabul to Guantánamo and back to Tampa, Fla., the headquarters of United States Central Command.

The scale reflected strong support from the top. When officials in Iraq were slow to organize another trip for analysts, a Pentagon official fired off an e-mail message warning that the trips "have the highest levels of visibility" at the White House and urging them to get moving before Lawrence Di Rita, one of Mr. Rumsfeld's closest aides, "picks up the phone and starts calling the 4-stars."

Mr. Di Rita, no longer at the Defense Department, said in an interview that a "conscious decision" was made to rely on the military analysts to counteract "the increasingly negative view of the war" coming from journalists in Iraq. The analysts, he said, generally had "a more supportive view" of the administration and the war, and the combination of their TV platforms and military cachet made them ideal for rebutting critical coverage of issues like troop morale, treatment of detainees, inadequate equipment or poorly trained Iraqi security forces. "On those issues, they were more likely to be seen as credible spokesmen," he said.

For analysts with military industry ties, the attention brought access to a widening circle of influential officials beyond the contacts they had accumulated over the course of their careers.

Charles T. Nash, a Fox military analyst and retired Navy captain, is a consultant who helps small companies break into the military market. Suddenly, he had entree to a host of senior military leaders, many of whom he had never met. It was, he said, like being embedded with the Pentagon leadership. "You start to recognize what's most important to them," he said, adding, "There's nothing like seeing stuff firsthand."

Some Pentagon officials said they were well aware that some analysts viewed their special access as a business advantage. "Of course we realized that," Mr. Krueger said. "We weren't naïve about that."

They also understood the financial relationship between the networks and their analysts. Many analysts were being paid by the "hit," the number of times they appeared on TV. The more an analyst could boast of fresh inside information from high-level Pentagon "sources," the more hits he could expect. The more hits, the greater his potential influence in the military marketplace, where several analysts prominently advertised their network roles.

"They have taken lobbying and the search for contracts to a far higher level," Mr. Krueger said. "This has been highly honed."

Mr. Di Rita, though, said it never occurred to him that analysts might use their access to curry favor. Nor, he said, did the Pentagon try to exploit this dynamic. "That's not something that ever crossed my mind," he said. In any event, he argued, the analysts and the networks were the ones responsible for any ethical complications. "We assume they know where the lines are," he said.

The analysts met personally with Mr. Rumsfeld at least 18 times, records show, but that was just the beginning. They had dozens more sessions with the most senior members of his brain trust and access to officials responsible for managing the billions being spent in Iraq. Other groups of "key influentials" had meetings, but not nearly as often as the analysts.

An internal memorandum in 2005 helped explain why. The memorandum, written by a Pentagon official who had accompanied analysts to Iraq, said that based on her observations during the trip, the analysts "are having a greater impact" on network coverage of the military. "They have now become the go-to guys not only on breaking stories, but they influence the views on issues," she wrote.

Other branches of the administration also began to make use of the analysts. Mr. Gonzales, then the attorney general, met with them soon after news leaked that the government was wiretapping terrorism suspects in the United States without warrants, Pentagon records show. When David H. Petraeus was appointed the commanding general in Iraq in January 2007, one of his early acts was to meet with the analysts.

"We knew we had extraordinary access," said Timur J. Eads, a retired Army lieutenant colonel and Fox analyst who is vice president of government relations for Blackbird Technologies, a fast-growing military contractor.

Like several other analysts, Mr. Eads said he had at times held his tongue on television for fear that "some four-star could call up and say, 'Kill that contract.' " For example, he believed Pentagon officials misled the analysts about the progress of Iraq's security forces. "I know a snow job when I see one," he said. He did not share this on TV.

"Human nature," he explained, though he noted other instances when he was critical.

Some analysts said that even before the war started, they privately had questions about the justification for the invasion, but were careful not to express them on air.

Mr. Bevelacqua, then a Fox analyst, was among those invited to a briefing in early 2003 about Iraq's purported stockpiles of illicit weapons. He recalled asking the briefer whether the United States had "smoking gun" proof.

" 'We don't have any hard evidence,' " Mr. Bevelacqua recalled the briefer replying. He said he and other analysts were alarmed by this concession. "We are looking at ourselves saying, 'What are we doing?' "

Another analyst, Robert L. Maginnis, a retired Army lieutenant colonel who works in the Pentagon for a military contractor, attended the same briefing and recalled feeling "very disappointed" after being shown satellite photographs purporting to show bunkers associated with a hidden weapons program. Mr. Maginnis said he concluded that the analysts were being "manipulated" to convey a false sense of certainty about the evidence of the weapons. Yet he and Mr. Bevelacqua and the other analysts who attended the briefing did not share any misgivings with the American public.

Mr. Bevelacqua and another Fox analyst, Mr. Cowan, had formed the wvc3 Group, and hoped to win military and national security contracts.

"There's no way I was going to go down that road and get completely torn apart," Mr. Bevelacqua said. "You're talking about fighting a huge machine."

Some e-mail messages between the Pentagon and the analysts reveal an implicit trade of privileged access for favorable coverage. Robert H. Scales Jr., a retired Army general and analyst for Fox News and National Public Radio whose consulting company advises several military firms on weapons and tactics used in Iraq, wanted the Pentagon to approve high-level briefings for him inside Iraq in 2006.

"Recall the stuff I did after my last visit," he wrote. "I will do the same this time."

Pentagon Keeps Tabs

As it happened, the analysts' news media appearances were being closely monitored. The Pentagon paid a private contractor, Omnitec Solutions, hundreds of thousands of dollars to scour databases for any trace of the analysts, be it a segment on "The O'Reilly Factor" or an interview with The Daily Inter Lake in Montana, circulation 20,000.

Omnitec evaluated their appearances using the same tools as corporate branding experts. One report, assessing the impact of several trips to Iraq in 2005, offered example after example of analysts echoing Pentagon themes on all the networks.

"Commentary from all three Iraq trips was extremely positive over all," the report concluded.

In interviews, several analysts reacted with dismay when told they were described as reliable "surrogates" in Pentagon documents. And some asserted that their Pentagon sessions were, as David L. Grange, a retired Army general and CNN analyst put it, "just upfront information," while others pointed out, accurately, that they did not always agree with the administration or each other. "None of us drink the Kool-Aid," General Scales said.

Likewise, several also denied using their special access for business gain. "Not related at all," General Shepperd said, pointing out that many in the Pentagon held CNN "in the lowest esteem."

Still, even the mildest of criticism could draw a challenge. Several analysts told of fielding telephone calls from displeased defense officials only minutes after being on the air.

On Aug. 3, 2005, 14 marines died in Iraq. That day, Mr. Cowan, who said he had grown increasingly uncomfortable with the "twisted version of reality" being pushed on analysts in briefings, called the Pentagon to give "a heads-up" that some of his comments on Fox "may not all be friendly," Pentagon records show. Mr. Rumsfeld's senior aides quickly arranged a private briefing for him, yet when he told Bill O'Reilly that the United States was "not on a good glide path right now" in Iraq, the repercussions were swift.

Mr. Cowan said he was "precipitously fired from the analysts group" for this appearance. The Pentagon, he wrote in an e-mail message, "simply didn't like the fact that I wasn't carrying their water." The next day James T. Conway, then director of operations for the Joint Chiefs, presided over another conference call with analysts. He urged them, a transcript shows, not to let the marines' deaths further erode support for the war.

"The strategic target remains our population," General Conway said. "We can lose people day in and day out, but they're never going to beat our military. What they can and will do if they can is strip away our support. And you guys can help us not let that happen."

"General, I just made that point on the air," an analyst replied.

"Let's work it together, guys," General Conway urged.

The Generals' Revolt

The full dimensions of this mutual embrace were perhaps never clearer than in April 2006, after several of Mr. Rumsfeld's former generals — none of them network military analysts — went public with devastating critiques of his wartime performance. Some called for his resignation.

On Friday, April 14, with what came to be called the "Generals' Revolt" dominating headlines, Mr. Rumsfeld instructed aides to summon military analysts to a meeting with him early the next week, records show. When an aide urged a short delay to "give our big guys on the West Coast a little more time to buy a ticket and get here," Mr. Rumsfeld's office insisted that "the boss" wanted the meeting fast "for impact on the current story."

That same day, Pentagon officials helped two Fox analysts, General McInerney and General Vallely, write an opinion article for The Wall Street Journal defending Mr. Rumsfeld.

"Starting to write it now," General Vallely wrote to the Pentagon that afternoon. "Any input for the article," he added a little later, "will be much appreciated." Mr. Rumsfeld's office quickly forwarded talking points and statistics to rebut the notion of a spreading revolt.

"Vallely is going to use the numbers," a Pentagon official reported that afternoon.

The standard secrecy notwithstanding, plans for this session leaked, producing a front-page story in The Times that Sunday. In damage-control mode, Pentagon officials scrambled to present the meeting as routine and directed that communications with analysts be kept "very formal," records show. "This is very, very sensitive now," a Pentagon official warned subordinates.

On Tuesday, April 18, some 17 analysts assembled at the Pentagon with Mr. Rumsfeld and General Pace, then the chairman of the Joint Chiefs.

A transcript of that session, never before disclosed, shows a shared determination to marginalize war critics and revive public support for the war.

"I'm an old intel guy," said one analyst. (The transcript omits speakers' names.) "And I can sum all of this up, unfortunately, with one word. That is Psyops. Now most people may hear that and they think, 'Oh my God, they're trying to brainwash.' "

"What are you, some kind of a nut?" Mr. Rumsfeld cut in, drawing laughter. "You don't believe in the Constitution?"

There was little discussion about the actual criticism pouring forth from Mr. Rumsfeld's former generals. Analysts argued that opposition to the war was rooted in perceptions fed by the news media, not reality. The administration's overall war strategy, they counseled, was "brilliant" and "very successful."

"Frankly," one participant said, "from a military point of view, the penalty, 2,400 brave Americans whom we lost, 3,000 in an hour and 15 minutes, is relative."

An analyst said at another point: "This is a wider war. And whether we have democracy in Iraq or not, it doesn't mean a tinker's damn if we end up with the result we want, which is a regime over there that's not a threat to us."

"Yeah," Mr. Rumsfeld said, taking notes.

But winning or not, they bluntly warned, the administration was in grave political danger so long as most Americans viewed Iraq as a lost cause. "America hates a loser," one analyst said.

Much of the session was devoted to ways that Mr. Rumsfeld could reverse the "political tide." One analyst urged Mr. Rumsfeld to "just crush these people," and assured him that "most of the gentlemen at the table" would enthusiastically support him if he did.

"You are the leader," the analyst told Mr. Rumsfeld. "You are our guy."

At another point, an analyst made a suggestion: "In one of your speeches you ought to say, 'Everybody stop for a minute and imagine an Iraq ruled by Zarqawi.' And then you just go down the list and say, 'All right, we've got oil, money, sovereignty, access to the geographic center of gravity of the Middle East, blah, blah, blah.' If you can just paint a mental picture for Joe America to say, 'Oh my God, I can't imagine a world like that.' "

Even as they assured Mr. Rumsfeld that they stood ready to help in this public relations offensive, the analysts sought guidance on what they should cite as the next "milestone" that would, as one analyst put it, "keep the American people focused on the idea that we're moving forward to a positive end." They placed particular emphasis on the growing confrontation with Iran.

"When you said 'long war,' you changed the psyche of the American people to expect this to be a generational event," an analyst said. "And again, I'm not trying to tell you how to do your job..."

"Get in line," Mr. Rumsfeld interjected.

The meeting ended and Mr. Rumsfeld, appearing pleased and relaxed, took the entire group into a small study and showed off treasured keepsakes from his life, several analysts recalled.

Soon after, analysts hit the airwaves. The Omnitec monitoring reports, circulated to more than 80 officials, confirmed that analysts repeated many of the Pentagon's talking points: that Mr. Rumsfeld consulted "frequently and sufficiently" with his generals; that he was not "overly concerned" with the criticisms; that the meeting focused "on more important topics at hand," including the next milestone in Iraq, the formation of a new government.

Days later, Mr. Rumsfeld wrote a memorandum distilling their collective guidance into bullet points. Two were underlined:

"Focus on the Global War on Terror — not simply Iraq. The wider war — the long war."

"Link Iraq to Iran. Iran is the concern. If we fail in Iraq or Afghanistan, it will help Iran."

But if Mr. Rumsfeld found the session instructive, at least one participant, General Nash, the ABC analyst, was repulsed.

"I walked away from that session having total disrespect for my fellow commentators, with perhaps one or two exceptions," he said.

View From the Networks

Two weeks ago General Petraeus took time out from testifying before Congress about Iraq for a conference call with military analysts.

Mr. Garrett, the Fox analyst and Patton Boggs lobbyist, said he told General Petraeus during the call to "keep up the great work."

"Hey," Mr. Garrett said in an interview, "anything we can do to help."

For the moment, though, because of heavy election coverage and general war fatigue, military analysts are not getting nearly as much TV time, and the networks have trimmed their rosters of analysts. The conference call with General Petraeus, for example, produced little in the way of immediate coverage.

Still, almost weekly the Pentagon continues to conduct briefings with selected military analysts. Many analysts said network officials were only dimly aware of these interactions. The networks, they said, have little grasp of how often they meet with senior officials, or what is discussed.

"I don't think NBC was even aware we were participating," said Rick Francona, a longtime military analyst for the network.

Some networks publish biographies on their Web sites that describe their analysts' military backgrounds and, in some cases, give at least limited information about their business ties. But many analysts also said the networks asked few questions about their outside business interests, the nature of their work or the potential for that work to create conflicts of interest. "None of that ever happened," said Mr. Allard, an NBC analyst until 2006.

"The worst conflict of interest was no interest."

Mr. Allard and other analysts said their network handlers also raised no objections when the Defense Department began paying their commercial airfare for Pentagon-sponsored trips to Iraq — a clear ethical violation for most news organizations.

CBS News declined to comment on what it knew about its military analysts' business affiliations or what steps it took to guard against potential conflicts.

NBC News also declined to discuss its procedures for hiring and monitoring military analysts. The network issued a short statement: "We have clear policies in place to assure that the people who appear on our air have been appropriately vetted and that nothing in their profile would lead to even a perception of a conflict of interest."

Jeffrey W. Schneider, a spokesman for ABC, said that while the network's military consultants were not held to the same ethical rules as its full-time journalists, they were expected to keep the network informed about any outside business entanglements. "We make it clear to them we expect them to keep us closely apprised," he said.

A spokeswoman for Fox News said executives "refused to participate" in this article.

CNN requires its military analysts to disclose in writing all outside sources of income. But like the other networks, it does not provide its military analysts with the kind of written, specific ethical guidelines it gives its full-time employees for avoiding real or apparent conflicts of interest.

Yet even where controls exist, they have sometimes proven porous.

CNN, for example, said it was unaware for nearly three years that one of its main military analysts, General Marks, was deeply involved in the business of seeking government contracts, including contracts related to Iraq.

General Marks was hired by CNN in 2004, about the time he took a management position at McNeil Technologies, where his job was to pursue military and intelligence contracts. As required, General Marks disclosed that he received income from McNeil Technologies. But the disclosure form did not require him to describe what his job entailed, and CNN acknowledges it failed to do additional vetting.

"We did not ask Mr. Marks the follow-up questions we should have," CNN said in a written statement.

In an interview, General Marks said it was no secret at CNN that his job at McNeil Technologies was about winning contracts. "I mean, that's what McNeil does," he said.

CNN, however, said it did not know the nature of McNeil's military business or what General Marks did for the company. If he was bidding on Pentagon contracts, CNN said, that should have disqualified him from being a military analyst for the network. But in the summer and fall of 2006, even as he was regularly asked to comment on conditions in Iraq, General Marks was working intensively on bidding for a $4.6 billion contract to provide thousands of translators to United States forces in Iraq. In fact, General Marks was made president of the McNeil spin-off that won the huge contract in December 2006.

General Marks said his work on the contract did not affect his commentary on CNN. "I've got zero challenge separating myself from a business interest," he said.

But CNN said it had no idea about his role in the contract until July 2007, when it reviewed his most recent disclosure form, submitted months earlier, and finally made inquiries about his new job.

"We saw the extent of his dealings and determined at that time we should end our relationship with him," CNN said.

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Thursday, June 12, 2008

A Victory for the USA Constitution

This court decision really made me proud to be an American today and I'm glad that some people in this country are still willing to defend our beloved Constitution (one of the greatest documents in existence, in my humble opinion) against the attacks that this Bush administration has attempted to level against it. This is why I still live in America and love her dearly, because despite her failings, she still has the heart of a champion.

High Court ruling may delay war crimes trials

By MARK SHERMAN, Associated Press Writer

The Supreme Court ruled Thursday that foreign terrorism suspects held at Guantanamo Bay have rights under the Constitution to challenge their detention in U.S. civilian courts.

In its third rebuke of the Bush administration's treatment of prisoners, the court ruled 5-4 that the government is violating the rights of prisoners being held indefinitely and without charges at the U.S. naval base in Cuba. The court's liberal justices were in the majority.

Justice Anthony Kennedy, writing for the court, said, "The laws and Constitution are designed to survive, and remain in force, in extraordinary times."

Kennedy said federal judges could ultimately order some detainees to be released, but that such orders would depend on security concerns and other circumstances.

The White House had no immediate comment on the ruling. White House press secretary Dana Perino, traveling with President Bush in Rome, said the administration was reviewing the opinion.

It was not immediately clear whether this ruling, unlike the first two, would lead to prompt hearings for the detainees, some of whom have been held more than 6 years. Roughly 270 men remain at the island prison, classified as enemy combatants and held on suspicion of terrorism or links to al-Qaida and the Taliban.

The ruling could resurrect many detainee lawsuits that federal judges in Washington put on hold pending the outcome of the high court case. The decision sent judges, law clerks and court administrators scrambling to read Kennedy's 70-page opinion and figure out how to proceed. Chief Judge Royce C. Lamberth said he would call a special meeting of federal judges to address how to handle the cases.

The decision also cast doubt on the future of the military war crimes trials that 19 detainees are facing so far. The Pentagon has said it plans to try as many as 80 men held at Guantanamo.

The lawyer for Salim Ahmed Hamdan, Osama bin Laden's one-time driver, said he will seek dismissal of the charges against Hamdan based on Thursday's ruling. A military judge had already delayed the trial's start to await the high court ruling.

The administration opened the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay shortly after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks to hold enemy combatants, people suspected of ties to al-Qaida or the Taliban.

The Guantanamo prison has been harshly criticized at home and abroad for the detentions themselves and the aggressive interrogations that were conducted there.

The court said not only that the detainees have rights under the Constitution, but that the system the administration has put in place to classify them as enemy combatants and review those decisions is inadequate.

The administration had argued first that the detainees have no rights. But it also contended that the classification and review process was a sufficient substitute for the civilian court hearings that the detainees seek.

In dissent, Chief Justice John Roberts criticized his colleagues for striking down what he called "the most generous set of procedural protections ever afforded aliens detained by this country as enemy combatants."

Justices Samuel Alito, Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas also dissented.

Scalia said the nation is "at war with radical Islamists" and that the court's decision "will make the war harder on us. It will almost certainly cause more Americans to be killed."

Justices Stephen Breyer, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, David Souter and John Paul Stevens joined Kennedy to form the majority.

Souter wrote a separate opinion in which he emphasized the length of the detentions.

"A second fact insufficiently appreciated by the dissents is the length of the disputed imprisonments, some of the prisoners represented here today having been locked up for six years," Souter said. "Hence the hollow ring when the dissenters suggest that the court is somehow precipitating the judiciary into reviewing claims that the military ... could handle within some reasonable period of time."

The court has ruled twice previously that people held at Guantanamo without charges can go into civilian courts to ask that the government justify their continued detention. Each time, the administration and Congress, then controlled by Republicans, changed the law to try to close the courthouse doors to the detainees.

The court specifically struck down a provision of the Military Commissions Act of 2006 that denies Guantanamo detainees the right to file petition of habeas corpus.

Habeas corpus is a centuries-old legal principle, enshrined in the Constitution, that allows courts to determine whether a prisoner is being held illegally.

The head of the New York-based Center for Constitutional Rights, which represents dozens of prisoners at Guantanamo, welcomed the ruling.

"The Supreme Court has finally brought an end to one of our nation's most egregious injustices," said CCR Executive Director Vincent Warren. "By granting the writ of habeas corpus, the Supreme Court recognizes a rule of law established hundreds of years ago and essential to American jurisprudence since our nation's founding."

Five alleged plotters of the Sept. 11 attacks appeared in a Guantanamo courtroom last week for a hearing before their war crimes trial, which prosecutors hope will start Sept. 15.

Navy Cmdr. Jeffrey Gordon, a Pentagon spokesman, said he had no immediate information whether a hearing at Guantanamo for Canadian Omar Khadr, charged with killing a U.S. Special Forces soldier in Afghanistan, would go forward next week as planned.

Bush has said he wants to close the facility once countries can be found to take the prisoners who are there.

Presidential candidates John McCain and Barack Obama also support shutting down the prison.

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Tuesday, June 03, 2008

The Trinity: A Muslim Perspective

I thought that this was an interesting article, so I sent it to some friends of mine. Here's one's response.

Noel said:

Interesting article. I do not know who Abdal-HakimMurad is, but he is clearly a well establishedscholar. Unfortunately for him, being a well established scholar does not entail having goodarguments, or a proper clarification of the trinity. For it seems to me that he has very bad arguments and an incorrect understanding of scripture. Allow me to demonstrate.

Murad says:

One of the virtues of the Semitic type of consciousness is the conviction that ultimate reality must be ultimately simple, and that the Nicene talk of a deity with three persons, one of whom has two natures, but who are all somehow reducible to authentic unity, quite apart from being rationally dubious, seems intuitively wrong. God, the final ground of all being, surely does not need to be so complicated.

Now what does Murad mean here by ultimately simple? Avery large portion in the history of Christian theology has maintained God's simplicity, his not having properties which are distinct from him. But perhaps, as seems likely, Murad has in mind here God's not being triune, or having two, three, or four persons make up the Godhead? Well, why is that a virtue? I suppose because there is something neat, if you will, or clean, about there being only one person that makes up the Godhead. Or in a similar vein,using good ol' Ockam, why should we multiply entities beyond necessity? But of course we may always ask if there are compelling reasons to believe in a Godhead composed of many persons as opposed to just one. I think there are, but I will not elaborate here since this would take a paper unto itself.

Furthermore, it is highly debatable whether God DID have to be that complex. After all, did the second person of the trinity really have to take on humanness, and so have two natures, or was it a choice He was not compelled to make on the basis of His nature? And how exactly is all this rationally dubious?!? Granted, it stretches the mind to think of one Godhead composed of three persons. But shouldn't many of God's attributes be perplexing? Have an air of paradox? It is not as if there is a contradiction involved. And Murad has done nothing to show that there is any rational dubiousness involved.

Murad says:

...that Jesus of Nazareth himself never believed, or taught, that he was the second person of a divine trinity. We know that he was intensely conscious of God as a divine and loving Father, and that he dedicated his ministry to proclaiming the imminence of God's kingdom, and to explaining how human creatures could transform themselves in preparation for that momentous time. He believed himself to be the Messiah,and the 'son of man' foretold by the prophets. We know from the study of first-century Judaism, recently made accessible by the Qumran discoveries, that neither of these terms would have been understood as implying divinity: they merely denoted purified servants of God.

Oh really! It is very interesting to note that the term "THE Son of Man" with the definite article 'THE' indicating uniqueness, is used eighty-four times in the gospels by Jesus only, and to Jesus only, and once in Acts by Stephen. They did not say 'A son of man' which would have been more likely if Jesus was one of many sons of men. Furthermore, there is strong scriptural support that 'the son of man' did have divine implications. Daniel 7:13 says "and behold,one like the son of man coming with the clouds ofheaven! ...and to Him was given dominion and gloryand kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away." Clearly the son of man here in Daniel is a divine being, for the language here is language that is only attributable to God! And it is evident that the high priests in Jesus time were more than cognizant of this. Matthew26:63-66 makes this abundantly clear. They ask Jesus if he is the Christ, the Son of God, and he says "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." To this the high priests responded by tearing their clothes, and saying "He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses?...He is deserving of death."

Since it is unmistakably clear that Jesus is referring to himself as the some of man spoken of in Daniel, and it is unmistakably clear that that figure is divine, no wonder the high priests wanted to kill him! They were more than cognizant of Daniel 7, and knew what Jesus was saying by identifying himself with the son of man. Indeed, why would they put him to death if he was merely claiming to be a purified servant of God! Murad has not done his homework.

Furthermore, while it is true that the term 'Messiah'(which means anointed one) did imply, for some rabbinic scholars, only esteemed servanthood, it did not for all. There were many rabbinic scholars both prior to Jesus and present with him who thought that THE coming Messiah would be divine. There was not consensus in the Jewish world as to the nature that THE coming messiah would take.

It is also very interesting that Murad ONLY focuses here on two titles of Jesus, But there are many more that Jesus used of himself that imply his divinity. In John 8:57, Jesus refers to himself as the I AM. Hesays, "before Abraham was, I AM." Now this is very interesting because Jesus is clearly making a reference to Exodus 3:14, where God identifies Himselfto Moses as "I AM WHO I AM" And of course, what happened when Jesus said that? They tried to stone him for his apparent blasphemy!

Jesus, in Revelation 22:13 Jesus calls himself "The Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End", a title used of God the Father in Revelation 1:8. So Jesus here is equating Himself with God.

Jesus did not rebuke Thomas (John 20:28) when Thomas said of him "My Lord and My God". But if Jesus was merely a servant of God, surely he would have rebuked Thomas here.

And there are many other reasons to believe that Jesus himself either explicitly or implicitly affirmed His divinity. Murad is therefore wrong in asserting that Jesus never did.

Murad says:

There are other implications of Trinitarian doctrine which concern Muslims. Perhaps one should briefly mention our worries about the doctrine of Atonement,which implies that God is only capable of really forgiving us when Jesus has borne our just punishment by dying on the cross. John Hick has remarked that 'a forgiveness that has to be bought by full payment of the moral debt is not in fact forgiveness at all.' More coherent, surely, is the teaching of Jesus himself in the parable of the prodigal son, who is fully forgiven by his father despite the absence of a blood sacrifice to appease his sense of justice. TheLord's Prayer, that superb petition for forgiveness, nowhere implies the need for atonement or redemption.

Jesus' own doctrine of God's forgiveness as recorded in the Gospels is in fact entirely intelligible in terms of Old Testament and Islamic conceptions. 'God can forgive all sins', says the Quran.

Now Murad here, once again, gets things all wrong. The term 'forgiveness' as used by scripture, in terms of God forgiving our sins, minimally means that God no longer holds our sins against us. Or what is very similar, when God forgives us our sins, our sins no longer separate us from God. But then OF COURSE a precondition to forgiveness is a sacrifice. If a precondition of God no longer holding our sins against us, of our sins no longer separating us from God, is an atonement for those sins, then it follows trivially that a sacrifice is a precondition for forgiveness. And why is this so incoherent, as Murad implies? He says that the parable of the prodigal son has no mention of atonement or blood sacrifice. But what follows from this? First of all, not all atonement for sin in the Old Testament required a blood sacrifice. There were grain, drink, and incense offerings. So the fact that no BLOOD offering is mentioned does very little work for Murad. Secondly,the point of that parable was not to lay out all the fine intricacies of proper ceremonial and sacrificial practices, but to show the loving heart of the father. A heart that reflected God's heart towards Israel. Furthermore, any half-minded Jew would have known that in order to be forgiven by God, a NECESSARY condition (not sufficient) was that a sacrifice be made. It is even further dubious that Murad focuses on only one saying of Jesus, and not His many others about His death and His role in taking away sin. See Matthew26:39, Luke 24:25-26, John 1:29; 6:51; 10:11 are just a few.

Murad says the Lord's prayer nowhere implies the need for atonement or redemption. Well, it actually does, implicitly, imply both. That this is so is due to the fact that the Lord's prayer was given to Jews, and for Jews the whole concept of divine forgiveness necessarily involved sacrifice, and therefore atonement, and redemption.

Murad is right that Jesus view of forgiveness are entirely intelligible with the Old Testaments. But the Old Testament's doctrine of forgiveness of sins involves sacrifice and atonement. But then so must the view that Jesus embraced. IF JESUS DID NOT ACCEPT SACRIFICE AND ATONEMENT THEN THE VIEW THAT JESUS EMBRACED WOULD NOT BE INTELLIGIBLE WITH THE OLD TESTAMENT.

Finally, and perhaps trivially, Murad is not using the standard meaning of unity here when he says that God is a unity. For a unity implies a plurality. And a unified plurality is precisely what the Christian conception of God is. If there is any God that is a unity it is the God of the Bible. But since Islam does not want a plurality, they must eschew a unity. To be fair, I am not claiming that Murad is being inconsistent. Only that he needs to be clear.

In conclusion, this was just a terrible and woefully inadequate account and criticism of the trinity, as I hope to have shown.

P.S. Sorry for any typos. I wrote this as fast as I could and with little attention to grammar and spelling. Not all of us have all the time in the world!

"Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars forever and ever." Daniel 12:3

I replied:

thanks so much for the long and well-thought out reply. I didn't think you would even read this article, much less give such a lengthy and well reasoned reply. I appreciate your thoughts regarding this and because you spent so much time and effort giving such a great response, I felt obligated to respond to your responses as well. As I agree with much of what the article says, I will argue from my interpretation and perspective regarding it. I dont' know if it is necessarily how a muslim would respond, so I'm not claiming that, but since I did agree with much of the article, I'll put on my Muslim hat and try to respond the best I can, keeping in mind that this is not necessarily how a Muslim would respond.

You ask the question 'Now what does Murad mean here by ultimately simple?' and then you go on to state that 'A very large portion in the history of Christian theology has maintained God's simplicity, his not having properties which are distinct from him.' However, this is not what I think Murad means here. I dont think he is talking about divine simplicity, I think he is talking about simplicity meaning easy to understand, contrasted with complexity, meaning difficult to understand. At least that is how I interpreted this statement.

Maybe a better way he could have put it, to avoid any confusion, is that say that the Islamic conception of strict monotheism seems to be prima facie simpler, meaning easier to understand, than the Christan conception of a triune monotheism, which seems to be prima facie more difficult to understand, especially when one looks at the controversy within Christianity itself about what the trinity exactly is and how to understand it. I think your statement that 'Granted, it stretches the mind to think of one Godhead composed of three persons.' is a more accurate description of what he was trying to say, but I could be wrong about this. however, that's how i interpreted him.

In addition to this, whether one regards the trinity as rationally dubious or not, I think he was just trying to give his own intuition regarding it. I think that's why he said at the end of that sentence that the idea of the trinity seems 'intuitively wrong.' So I think he was more trying to express his own intuitions, and maybe those of other Muslims, when he made that statement, not necessarily trying to give a complex argument about why the trinity is conclusively rationally dubious. but regardless, you are correct when you state that 'It is not as if there is a contradiction involved. And Murad has done nothing to show that there is any rational dubiousness involved.' I do agree with you that he hasn't shown the dubiousness, but I don't think it was his point too, he was just expressing his intutions regarding it, that is all.

As far as the next part, regarding Jesus divinity, I must say that I agree with the Muslim perspective when they state 'that Jesus of Nazareth himself never believed, or taught, that he was the second person of a divine trinity.' but I think that this is a different claim from the claim that jesus was divine. This is because I believe that everybody is divine, in so much as everybody has a soul and the soul is divine, that is why I agree with the article when it says that 'A few years previously, the twelfth-century theologian Al-Ghazali (the founder of Sufism) had summed up the dangers of ghuluww when he wrote that the Christians had been so dazzled by the divine light reflected in the mirror like heart of Jesus, that they mistook the mirror for the light itself, and worshipped it.' I think that this happened to the Apostles and is still happening with Christians today.

But I disagree with Muslims when they state that 'The Qur'anic term for 'exaggeration' used here, ghuluww, became a standard term in Muslim heresiography for any tendency, Muslim or otherwise, which attributed divinity to a revered and charismatic figure.' I think that you can attribute a certain amount of divinity to every person and every thing in existence, because I believe we all have a piece of the divine within us, (I also think that Sufism agrees with me on this point), but it is a whole other step to claim that somebody is God incarnate themselves, or the second person of a divine trinity.

So I guess that I hold the Muslim view 'that the Hellenized Christ, who in one nature was of one substance with God, and in another nature was of one substance with humanity, bore no significant resemblance to the ascetic prophet who had walked the roads of Galilee some three centuries before.' But I disagree with the Muslim view that jesus had absolutely no divinity at all.

In fact, I think that he might have been the most divine person to ever exist, when that divinity is understood as al-ghazali's divine light, and I think that other people in history, like Ghandi and Dr. King, were able to let their own divine light of their soul shine through their beings. I think that this is actually the purpose of human existence, to completely align and harmonize your 'earthly' self with your 'divine' self while living our lives, but even if this harmonization took place and one has completely harmonized their dual selves (as I believe jesus was able to do, 100% human, 100% divine as the catholics profess), this is still not the same thing being God Incarnate or the second person of a divine trinity. There is a world of difference between these two.

Some may view me as splitting hairs here and say if you believe Jesus was able to achieve this complete harmonization, why can't you take the additional step and beleive he was God incarnate? this is because to do this, would be, in essence, to confuse a part with the whole. I believe that all of our souls are somehow connected to or a part of God, but only a part. I believe that all of these souls somehow form a 'super-soul' which is God. I can't exactly explain the specifics of how this all works, and that is obviously a weakness in my position, but it is something I beleive nonetheless. So to say that one human soul is God is therefore to equate a part of God with the whole, which is God, which is incorrect and I believe a form of idolotry. I don't know if this is the Muslim view or not, but it's my view, so I thought i would share it with you.

you also quote daniel when you say that 'Daniel 7:13 says "and behold, one like the son of man coming with the clouds of heaven! ...and to Him was given dominion and glory and kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languagesshould serve him; His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away." Clearly the son of man here in Daniel is a divine being, for the language here is language that is only attributable to God!' But I disagree with you here. On my theology, that language doesn't necessarily have to be 'only attributable to God' but could be attributed to Jesus, without Jesus being God incarnate or the second person of a divine trinity. But I digress...

you also use the gospel of john in your arguments, and many christians do, in order to affirm jesus's identity with God, but I'm sure a Muslim would not accept John's gospel as being authentically the words of jesus, I know that I do not. It was written in 110 AD, 80 years after the death of jesus and has heavy gnostic overtones and it is because of these gnostic overtones that I think that most, if not all of the gospel of john, must be interpreted allegorically and metaphorically, not literally. when one interprets it in this way, al-ghazali's statement becomes more and more true and a lot of the argument for the incarnation and the trinity falls by the wayside. but obviously, this is a hermenutical (spelling?) issue and I'm sure that we will disagree on how exactly it should be interpreted. that's a big reason i've wanted to get a religion degree here as well, hopefully, i can study some hermenuetics, but i probably have to go to a theology school to do that.

also, one of the Muslims chief claims is that the christian scripture has been corrupted and I'm sure that they would claim that the gospel of john is evidence of this corruption. This is one of the chief reasons that Islam was invented in the first place, so that the world would have a scripture this is incorruptable. The Quran is suppossed to be this scripture and it claims that angels themselves will guard it to make sure it is not corrupted.

I dont' necessarily believe this, about the quran I mean, but I do believe that only the gospel Q is the authentic words of Jesus and that everything else was added after the fact, in order to meld the myth of the Jewish messiah with the pagan godman mystery religions that were all the rage in the mediterranean at that time. that is a big reason why I agree with more the muslim view of jesus than the christian view, although i disagree if the muslim view means jesus was not at all divine.

you also state that 'But then OF COURSE a precondition to forgiveness is a sacrifice.' and later that 'Furthermore, any half-minded Jew would have known that in order to be forgiven by God, a NECESSARY condition (not sufficient) was that a sacrifice be made. It is even further dubious that Murad focuses on only one saying of Jesus, and not His many others about His death and His role in taking away sin. See Matthew 26:39, Luke 24:25-26, John 1:29; 6:51; 10:11 are just a few.' but I, and I think a muslim as well, would disagree with the idea that a sacrifice is a necessary condition for the forgiveness of sins. I think that one could argue that God is so loving and so merciful that a blood sacrifice is not necessary for the forgiveness of sins, indeed, no sacrifice is necessary when the prodigal son parable is interpreted in the way murad has interpreted it.

so i guess that i'm saying that I think a muslim would respond that god's omni-benevolence does not require a sacrifice or an atonement, that putting this constraint on God diminishes his omni-benevolence and that we are anthropomorphizing God by putting our own ideas of justice and benevolence onto him. that his benevolent nature is such that no sacrifice or atonement is necessary. i dont' know if i necessarily believe this, but i could see somebody responding in this way. and since those passages that you quoted are not from the gospel Q, I could see a muslim saying that they were latter additions by the gospel writers themselves, in order to more fully judaize jesus and make his radical ethic of love fit inside their conception of God's forgiveness. so i guess one could argue that jesus conception of forgiveness is not in fact intelligible with the old testament view.

so this is my response, as incoherent and skeptical as it may be. i hope that i have further clarified my own positions regarding this issue, as many of them fall in accord with Islam, but some of them do not. i also hope that i have represented a muslim response well, but since i am not a muslim, i dont' know if i have or not. i look forward to response and your attempt to destroy my skeptical and quasi-islamic arguments. :) talk to you soon

Alex said:

I finally printed this article and will read it today and perhaps give a reply in the near future. I will simply state one thing namely that the doctrine of the Trinity is not a belief that can be rationally proved and the only way to know of it in an intimate manner which penetrates to the depths of one's soul and becomes firmly accepted by the intellect is through an act of faith. As such the revelation of the Trinity gives to mankind a knowledge, albeit in an obscure manner since no one can penetrate the depths of the mystery of the inner life of God. One of the key points in the Catholic understanding of the Trinity is how the relationship between the Three Persons is predicated upon their Love for one another. Anyway, hopefully (I am not making any promises...lol) I will write something with at least a minimum of intelligence.

Noel said:

Thanks as well for the response. But I have a just afew things to say...

You say: You ask the question 'Now what does Murad mean here by ultimately simple?' and then you go on to state that 'A very large portion in the history of Christian theology has maintained God's simplicity, his not having properties which are distinct from him.' However, this is not what I think Murad means here. I dont think he is talking about divine simplicity, I think he is talking about simplicity meaning easy to understand, contrasted with complexity, meaning difficult to understand. At least that is how I interpreted this statement... I think your statement that 'Granted, it stretches the mind to think of one Godhead composed of three persons.' is a more accurate description of what he was trying to say,

That's right, and I was clear that that was what he probably meant.

You say again: In addition to this, whether one regards the trinity as rationally dubious or not, I think he was just trying to give his own intuition regarding it... So I think he was more trying to express his own intuitions, and maybe those of other Muslims, when he made that statement, not necessarily trying to give a complex argument about why the trinity is conclusively rationally dubious.

I was never claiming he was trying to give a complex argument. But if you are going to say that you think something is rationally dubious, then you had either better give some reasons why, or be explicit and say that this is just your opinion and you either cannot substantiate it or will not. Murad does neither.

You say: As far as the next part, regarding Jesus divinity, I must say that I agree with the Muslim perspective when they state 'that Jesus of Nazareth himself never believed, or taught, that he was the second person of a divine trinity.' but I think that this is a different claim from the claim that jesus was divine. This is because I believe that everybody is divine, in so much as everybody has a soul and the soul is divine, that is why I agree with the article when it says that 'A few years previously, the twelfth-century theologian Al-Ghazali (the founder of Sufism) had summed up the dangers of ghuluww when he wrote that the Christians had been so dazzled by the divine light reflected in the mirror like heart of Jesus, that they mistook the mirror for the light itself, and worshipped it.' I think that this happened to the Apostles and is still happening with Christians today.

Jason, you're killing me here! You are clearly equivocating on 'divine' here. What is in mind is whether or not Jesus is God. You can use divine however you want, but the debate here is whether or not Jesus is God, not whether or not he has somed ivine part in light of having a soul. Let's keep to the original debate and not get sidetracked here.

You say : In fact, I think that he might have been the most divine person to ever exist, when that divinity is understood as al-ghazali's divine light, and I think that other people in history, like Ghandi and Dr. King, were able to let their own divine light of their soul shine through their beings. I think that this is actually the purpose of human existence, to completely align and harmonize your 'earthly' self with your 'divine' self while living our lives, but even if this harmonization took place and one has completely harmonized their dual selves (as I believe jesus was able to do, 100% human, 100%> divine as the catholics profess), this is still not the same thing being God Incarnate or the second person of a divine trinity. There is a world of difference between these two.

Let's keep to the debate here...WHETHER OR NOT JESUS WAS FULLY GOD AND WHETHER OR NOT THE BIBLE TEACHES THIS.

You say: you also quote daniel when you say that 'Daniel 7:13 says "and behold, one like the son of man coming with the clouds of heaven! ...and to Him was given dominion and glory and kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away." Clearly the son of man here in Daniel is a divine being, for the language here is language that is only attributable to God!' But I disagree with you here. On my theology, that language doesn't necessarily have to be 'only attributable to God' but could be attributed to Jesus, without Jesus being God incarnate or the second person of a divine trinity. But I digress...

As you should. For you are not at all familiar with old testament theology here, nor with 1st centuryJewish beliefs, nor with biblical theology at that! Well, maybe on YOUR theology Daniel 7 need not imply that the son of man is God, but with all do respect, we are not concerned with your theology, but with biblical theology. I thought this much should have been obvious, for even Murad tries to give arguments on the basis of what scripture says (however erroneous). And clearly, for any Jew, the language attributable to the son of man in Daniel 7 clearly implies that the son of man there is God. To attribute to a being the properties of being served by all nations, peoples, tongues, and having a dominion that will not end to a person other than God would have been blasphemous! Is not this obvious? It is very bad exegesis to take a scripture and interpret it in such a way that it pays NO attention to the context and time in which it is was written.

You say: you also use the gospel of john in your arguments, and many christians do, in order to affirm jesus's identity with God, but I'm sure a Muslim would not accept John's gospel as being authentically the words of jesus, I know that I do not. It was written in 110 AD, 80 years after the death of jesus and has heavy gnostic overtones and it is because of these gnostic overtones that I think that most, if not all of the gospel of john, must be interpreted allegorically and metaphorically, not literally. when one interprets it in this way, al-ghazali's statement becomes more and more true and a lot of the argument for the incarnation and the trinity falls by the wayside. but obviously, this is a hermenutical (spelling?) issue and I'm sure that we will disagree on how exactly it should be interpreted. that's a big reason i've wanted to get a religion degree here as well, hopefully, i can study some hermenuetics, but i probably have to go to a theology school to do that.

Well, it is, of course, debatable whether or not John was written that late. But this is another matter. To be sure, perhaps many Muslims would not count the gospel of John as trustworthy. But I do not see where this gets us. I don't think that the Quran is divinely inspired, and so I could just dismiss much of what it has to say. But all this is wrongheaded here in the present debate! For we are concerned with whether or not Jesus in the gospels teaches that He is God. I think that is why Murad himself mentions biblical scripture. He is trying to say (or so it seems to me since he uses scripture) that one cannot conclude from scripture (the gospels) that Jesus is God. Now it is a whole other question whether or not the books of the bible are authentic, or reliable,etc. But what we are concerned with here is whether or not scripture teaches that Jesus is God, regardless of the time the gospels were written or are trustworthy. It seems to me that you have confused the two issues, and so it is irrelevant to claim that John was written late, which is a contentious claim anyway.

You say: I do believe that only the gospel Q is the authentic words of Jesus and that everything else was added after the fact, in order to meld the myth of the Jewish messiah with the pagan godman mystery religions that were all the rage in the mediterranean at that time. that is a big reason why I agree with more the muslim view of jesus than the christian view, although i disagree if the muslim view means jesus was not at all divine.

This is all irrelevant here in the present debate, as was showed above. But just a quick note. The gospel Q has never been found. It was postulated in order to make sense of the synoptic gospels (their very strong similarity). In fact, Q got its name from the german word 'quelle' which just means source. Now there may have been such a thing as Q (and if fact, I am not opposed to this at all, and neither are a great many biblical scholars), but why believe that only what Q says (which is just what the synoptic gospels agree about) should be taken as valid? Either way, this is all irrelevant in this debate!

You say: You also state that 'But then OF COURSE a preconditionto forgiveness is a sacrifice.' and later that 'Furthermore, any half-minded Jew would have known that in order to be forgiven by God, a NECESSARYcondition (not sufficient) was that a sacrifice be made. It is even further dubious that Murad focuses on only one saying of Jesus, and not His many others about His death and His role in taking away sin. See Matthew 26:39, Luke 24:25-26, John 1:29; 6:51; 10:11 are just a few.' but I, and I think a muslim as well, would disagree with the idea that a sacrifice is a necessary condition for the forgiveness of sins. I think that one could argue that God is so loving and so merciful that a blood sacrifice is not necessary for the forgiveness of sins, indeed, no sacrifice is necessary when the prodigal son parable is interpreted in the way murad has interpreted it.

You're killing me here once again, for you have clearly failed to understand both Murad and me! Obviously Muslims (and you as well) do not think that a blood sacrifice is necessary for forgiveness. But THAT IS NOT WHAT IS UP FOR DEBATE!!! Murad was trying to show that the gospels does not teach that a blood sacrifice was necessary. I showed that it was! Just a cursory reading of the Old Testament will show why the Jesus in the gospels does think this! The question here is not what Muslims or you believe, but about what the Bible (the gospels) teaches. After all, is this not why Murad himself is using scripture? If we was just concerned with what Muslims believe,then he would not have to quote the bible. He could just quote some passages from the Quran. But he DID quote the bible because he WAS trying to show that Jesus did not believe in a blood sacrifice. But I have show why Jesus did believe in a blood sacrifice. You have not given any exegetical argument here, but merely asserted something we all know. That muslims do not believe in a blood sacrifice.

Furthermore, you have completely discarded my argument given to you in conversation about Jesus being a sacrifice, and therefore appeasing God's wrath and satisfying His justice. The biblical account of atonement satisfies two VERY important desiderata, namely, God's love and mercy AND His wrath and justice. The islamic conception fails here at this point. but you say...

so i guess that i'm saying that I think a muslim would respond that god's omni-benevolence does not require a sacrifice or an atonement, that putting this constraint on God diminishes his omni-benevolence and that we are anthropomorphizing God by putting our own ideas of justice and benevolence onto him. that his benevolent nature is such that no sacrifice or atonement is necessary. i dont' know if i necessarily believe this, but i could see somebody responding in this way. and since those passages that you quoted are not from the gospel Q, I could see a muslim saying that they were latter additions by the gospel writers themselves, in order to more fully judaize jesus and make his radical ethic of love fit inside their conception of God's forgiveness. so i guess one could argue that jesus conception of forgiveness is not in fact intelligible with the old testament view.

But Jason, why am I guilty here of anthropomorphizing here any more than the Muslim? And how in the world does it diminish God's love? I know you do not necessarily believe this, but I would want an answer here from the Muslim. And the appeal to Q is, again, besides the point in the present context. Once again, it is one thing to make claims about what scriptural portions are reliable or not, and then make arguments using those scriptures, and another to ask what the Bible, or here, the gospels, teach. If Murad were going to discount the gospel John, he sure did not say so. And it seems as if he was trying to show that theJesus of the Bible did not teach trinity or a blood sacrifice. But the Jesus of the Bible includes the Jesus found in John, and Murad said nothing at all about the status of John's book.

Thanks Jason for your lengthy response, even if Idisagreed heartily! Much appreciated man. I'll talk to you soon bro.

I replied:

sorry its' taken me so long to respond to your response, but i wanted to read the article over again, even more closely than i did the second time i read it to respond to your original response, to answer some of your claims. so here goes.

noel says that I am 'clearly equivocating on 'divine' here. What is in mind is whether or not Jesus is God.' But I don't think I am equivocating on divine here because i do not think that this is what is up for issue. I think what is up for issue here is whether or not, in murad's words, 'Jesus of Nazareth himself never believed, or taught, that he was the second person of a divine trinity.'

I think that the confusion is coming in here because in my eyes, the issue whether or not jesus taught that he was god incarnate or not and the issue of whether jesus taught that he was the second person in a divine trinity or not are two seperate issues, whereas I think that for you Noel, these two issues are one and the same issue. i think that you can have jesus being god incarnate without being a part of a divine trinity and you can have a divine trinity without jesus being god incarnate. i thought that murad was arguing that jesus did not teach that he was the second part of a divine trinity, not that jesus did not teach that he was god incarnate. he is clearly arguing against jesus divinity, but i understood it to be an article arguing against his divinity characterized as a divine trinity, not necessarily arguing against his divinity characterized as god incarnate. but maybe i'm still failing to understand what is at issue here or what murad is arguing against here.

i do agree with you that murad is trying to argue, from a biblical perspective, that jesus did not teach that he was the second person of a divine trinity. the line in the article that confirmed this for me was when he writes that 'One of Reuther's own main objections to the Trinity, apart from its historically and Biblically sketchy foundations, is its emphatic attribution of masculine gender to God.' murad is here inserting his own opinion that the doctrine of the trinity has 'historically and biblically sketchy foundations.' so i think you are right when you state that what is at issue is what the bible teaches in regards to the trinity, but does this necessarily have to do with the issue of whether jesus is god incarnate, as my above paragraph tries to clarify?

after reading the rest of your response, i think that i can't say anymore until this previous issue gets clarified. i think a lot of what i will or won't say hinges on this issue, whether the trinity and the incarnation can be seperated or not and whether murad believes this or doesn't.
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