This conversation was originally about...

Maher said: 'I think you started this when you sent an article entitled "indiscriminate israeli bombings". Well, in fact, the email had as it's subject indiscriminate israeli bombings and the article's title was 'Annan: IAF hit 'apparently deliberate,' which you can read right after my little intro to it, which starts below:

I think the israelis are just as bad as the 'terrorists' they are fighting. now they've killed 'clearly marked' u.n. officials andi've read reports of them bombing vehicles carrying civilians driving north to get away from the fighting and I'll include a linkto a picture and article of ambulances with bomb holes in the top ofthem. what intelligence could persuade them to bomb various automobiles driving north full of civilians to avoid the fighting and 'clearly marked' u.n. officials and red cross ambulances? iwould really like to see the investigation into these activities and believe this is gonna go down as a horrible human rights abuse by israel when all is said and done. i think the last figures I heardwere 40 israelis dead and 400 lebanese, no wonder the arabs arepissed off.

heres the link:

the picture

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/

(i can't get this link to go right to the picture anymore, but it's a very interesting website nonethelesss)

the article

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1828142,00.html

check out this link for the statistics on the gross inequality between israel and the palestinians:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

>Annan: IAF hit 'apparently deliberate'
>
>An Israeli bomb destroyed a UN observer post on the border in
>southern Lebanon, killing two peacekeepers with two others feared
>dead under the rubble. UN chief Kofi Annan said Israel appeared to
>have struck the site deliberately.
>
>Israel's UN Ambassador Dan Gillerman expressed his "deep regret" for
>the deaths and denied Isarel hit the post intentionally.
>
>"I am shocked and deeply distressed by the hasty statement of the
>secretary-general, insinuating that Israel has deliberately targeted
>the UN post," he said, calling the assertions "premature and
>erroneous."
>
>The IDF said in response that it deeply regretted the "tragic death"
>of the UN personnel and vowed to investigate the incident.
>
>The bomb made a direct hit on the building and shelter of the
>observer post in the town of Khiyam near the eastern end of the
>border with Israel, said Milos Struger, spokesman for the UN
>peacekeeping force in Lebanon known as UNIFIL.
>
>Rescue workers were trying to clear the rubble, but Israeli firing
>"continued even during the rescue operation," Struger said.
>
>Annan said two UN military observers were killed with two more
>feared dead. The victims included observers from Austria, a Canada,
>China and Finland, UN and Lebanese military officials said, speaking
>on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to release
>the information to the media. It was not immediately known which
>were confirmed dead.
>
>As reports of the attack emerged, Annan rushed out of a hotel in
>Rome following a dinner with US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice
>and Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora.
>
>"I am shocked and deeply distressed by the apparently deliberate
>targeting by Israeli Defence Forces of a UN Observer post in
>southern Lebanon," Annan said in a statement later.
>
>Annan said in his statement that the post had been there for a long
>time and was marked clearly, and was hit despite assurances from
>Prime Minister Ehud Olmert that UN positions would not be attacked.
>
>"I call on the goverment of Israel to conduct a full investigation
>into this very disturbing incident and demand that any further
>attack on UN positions and personnel must stop," Annan said in the
>statement.
>
>Gillerman said "Israel is carrying out a thorough inquiry into this
>tragic incident and will inform the UN of its results as soon as
>possible."
>
>US Ambassador John Bolton said the Security Council was informed
>that four officers were killed, but he had no other information.
>
>"We're obviously very sorry about that. We're attempting to get
>information where we can to confirm the nature of the incident,"
>Bolton said.
>
>Since Israel launched a massive military offensive against Lebanon
>and Hezbollah guerrillas July 12, an international civilian employee
>working with UNIFIL and his wife have been killed in the crossfire
>between Israeli forces and Hezbollah guerrillas in the southern port
>city of Tyre.
>
>Five UNIFIL soldiers and one military observer have also been
>wounded, Struger said.

Maher then says: 'Alex then replied with something about Jesus christ being the solution. I replied to Alex and told him that i disagree and religion is behind all of this. Alex then...started the "just war" debate" [and] then i did the survey :)'

Alex started a conversation on just war theory, after my 'indiscriminate israeli bombings' email, and provided two articles which states the Catholic position on it, which are here and here, which is what started Maher's survey in the first place. Maher then wrote that he thinks that ' religion is behind all of this' in regards to the problems in the Middle East and Alex disagreed with him by writing this:

Ultimately, Maher, it is a problem that resides in the heart of men. I don't think you say "religion is behind all of this". Isn't this an oversimplification? Ideologies are the problem but not religion per se. What religion are you even talking about? What do you think is the answer? Once again I will repeat that the problem lies with individuals. Man (that means men and women) as a creature has duties towards God and to think that peace can be had ignoring this basic principle is simply illusory. After these nations destroy each other over power and greed then perhaps they will come to realize this.

Maher responded to Alex's above-mentioned statement below:

This is not an over simplification, it is just simplification, but let's get in a little bit of details. Do you think there is any religion without ideologies? According to my American Heritage dictionary, ideology is 1) the body of ideas reflecting the social needs and aspiration of individual, group, class, or culture 2)a set of doctrines or beliefs that form the basis of a political , economic or other system. According to these definitions, especially the second, religion is not separate from ideologies. Every religion have certain ideologies that goes by and since no religion has clear answers to provide its followers about everything, and since there will always be conflict even between the members of each religion that leads to hatred because different people choose to believe in different things,and since religion brain washes people in many ways in certain ways, then religion is a source of conflict and hence it is a source of the problem. I am talking about any religion that promotes the idea that they are the only truth out there including catholicism and islam. And it is true that the problem may reside within the individuals, but it is because religion is not clear on many issues and the followers of any religion could interrupt anything differently, and therefore, religion is the cause of the problem once again for failing to provide clear answers to all of its followers to many issues in our daily life. You may say oh yes there is clear answers, but if there are, then just think about the different million opinions people have about any issue (pick one) in the same religion. If those nations are destroying others, it is also because of religion. The real conflict in the region is because of the hatred that religion promotes towards others. Jews don't like muslims and christians, muslims don't like the jews and christians, christians don't like the muslims and the jews, everyone of them thinks that the others is wrong, so they fight. Don't try to convince yourself that religion is innocent because it is not. Just from reading your answers to the 5-questions i sent you, i can see why, for as long as religion is the driving force in people lives, there will always be war and hatred.

What is my answer to the conflict in the middle east, mainly palestine/israel/Lebanon? Well, if i was put in a situation to change things, here is what i will do:

1. Realizing that no effective short term solution will take place, i will go on with my long term plan. I will implement a liberal education curriculum in schools that does not have religion, or any ideology (ex. communism) as its source. A curriculum that emphasize critical thinking that leads to liberal education. When i was in Jordan for 19 years, i was never allowed to think. I was never asked to read a book in any class. I was never asked to write an essay to criticize anything. There were certain stuff, mainly coming from religious teachings, that i needed to memorize. No thinking!

2. I will stop all religious schools (ex. catholic and islamic) and those that promote certain ideologies like communism (not that communism exists in the middle east, but i am using it as an example) from teaching anything except religion. People have the right to pass on their religious teachings to their kids, the right to religion, but when it comes to teaching the basic liberal education classes like literature, history, math, and all that stuff, i would not allow any religious oriented schools or teachers to do that.

3. Coming from a family that has its roots in jerusalem (both my parents, their families and ancestors) are from jerusalem, i know how hard this will sound, but i am afraid that it is the only solution to the palestinian/israeli problem, which is the main problem in the middle east. I would claim jerusalem (since it is the main problem there for the 3 major religions that exist in that region) and make it belong to no one. An international property that none of the palestinians/israelis, christians can claim as their own. that way they all can have access to it and use it equally without feeling that the other is doing any harm to them.

4. I would then divide the rest of palestine equally between Israel and Palestine and claim each as its own country.

5. I would also dramatically change how the UN functions in the process. Make it more useful, more powerful, and serves as an international force that have the human kind at heart, and not any specific ethnicity or ethnocentric beliefs.